Will the Delta Variant Cause a New Recession?

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About a week ago, a pretty dramatic announcement came blasting out from Wall Street: The Pandemic Recession is officially over! Woohoo! Champagne flowing all around!

The pandemic sparked recession ended in April 2020 after just two months, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research

The covid recession is officially over, and it was the shortest on record: CNN

Of course, the reason that you probably haven’t heard about this pretty momentous news is that it’s been buried by a far scarier story: The resurgence of the Delta variant in the USA.

In the past two weeks, the number of average new daily cases has more than doubled, from 13,200 on July 4 to more than 32,300 on July 18

A Fourth Wave of COVID-19 Is Brewing in the U.S. Is There Enough Time to Stop It?: Time

Both stories can be correct at the same time. Recessions are defined by 2 consecutive periods of a country’s GDP contracting. That happened last year when the world took the unprecedented step of shutting down our economies all at once in order to try to limit the spread of the virus, resulting in the single largest recorded annualized GDP drop of 32.9% in the 2nd quarter of 2020. But as our vaccination campaign really started to gain steam in early 2021, businesses started reopening, stock markets started rampaging, and the economy is hiring people so quickly that they’re running into a labour shortage.

On the flip side, the pandemic ain’t over. In fact, after a pretty impressive beginning of the year when vaccines successfully crushed case counts in much of the country, we are seeing surging infection levels that are already worrying the CDC that we are entering the dreaded “4th wave” of the pandemic.

Source: COVID-19 in the U.S: CTV

Financial markets reacted swiftly to the news, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average nose-diving last Monday over 800 points in the worst trading session of the year as Wall Street grappled with the uncomfortable reality that we might not be over this.

So are we all screwed? Could we be headed into another lockdown-induced recession?

A Pandemic of the Unvaccinated

Before we dive into that question, we need to point out a very big difference between the 2020 pandemic and the 2021 pandemic. In 2020, everyone was in danger of being infected, but the people that were in the most danger were the elderly and the immunocompromised. There were no vaccines, there were no treatments, and there were no cures. If we got the disease and passed it on to our parents or grandparents, there was a high likelihood that they weren’t going to recover.

In 2021, the people who are being infected and hospitalized belong to a very different group: The unvaccinated.

And that’s not just me guessing. Study after study in multiple countries has confirmed it. In Canada, the UK, and the US, over 99% of the deaths are patients that haven’t received both shots of the vaccine.

And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average.

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated: AP News

That doesn’t meant that people who are vaccinated aren’t still getting COVID. For those people, most cases are asymptomatic so they don’t notice, and of the ones that are symptomatic, their symptoms are so mild that it’s basically a bad cold. The ones who are in imminent danger of being hospitalized or dying are nearly all unvaccinated. And with the Delta variant’s higher transmissibility rate, the US CDC is saying that if you’re not vaccinated, you’re virtually guaranteed to eventually catch it.

Now there are lots and lots of reasons why people aren’t vaccinated. Some are uneasy with the speed at which the vaccines have been developed. Some distrust the government’s intentions due to historical reasons, like the infamous Tuskagee Study in which African American residents were experimented on without their consent. Some are children below the age of 12 who can’t be vaccinated yet because the FDA hasn’t approved it.

The single biggest factor among adults, however, is political affiliation. In a recent poll, 41% of registered Republicans say they will never get the vaccine.

To say this is confusing to the rest of the world would be a massive understatement. Being a conservative voter and being an anti-vaxxer are not connected in other democracies. In Canada, the percentage of people who want to get vaccinated is about equal across all political parties. In the UK, Tory voters also overwhelmingly want the vaccine, with 93% of conservative voters polled saying they had or were planning on getting it.

Yet in America, nearly half of Republican voters still think the pandemic is a hoax and that the vaccine is poisonous. That doesn’t make any bit of sense, considering that the vaccines were developed and funded by the Trump administration!

So regardless of why we got into this mess, the question remains: Will the resurgence of the Delta variant cause a new wave of lockdowns and therefore a new recession?

Personally, I don’t think so. And that’s because…

People Have Run Out of Empathy for the Unvaccinated

Remember when the lockdowns started at the beginning of the pandemic, when there was this shared desire to keep our parents safe, and protect each other, and everyone was like “We’re all in this together”?

Yeah, those days are long gone.

I don’t know if it’s the polarization of the media, or lock down fatigue, or whatever, but whatever sympathy the vaccinated and the unvaccinated had for each other seems to have evaporated.

It goes both ways. The vaccinated crowd asking the unvaccinated to get their shots or stay indoors to protect their children who, again, can’t be vaccinated are met with a derisive “Why should I give a shit about your kids? They aren’t me!”

And on the flip side, the media coverage of sick, unvaccinated people being put on a ventilator or dying in an ICU that used to be met with at least concern is now being met with an unhealthy dose of schadenfreude. “Screw ’em. Let them die, they did it to themselves.”

Don’t believe me? Here’s an entire Reddit forum dedicated to making fun of anti-vaxxers who die from COVID.

Keepin’ it classy, as always, Reddit.

And that’s why I don’t think we’ll go back to lockdowns. Lockdowns require the vast majority of people to comply in order for it to be effective, and when there was no vaccine and it seemed that ANYBODY could get it, that healthy dose of fear made people agree to stay indoors.

But now that vaccines have been available for months and the vast majority of people who get sick chose not to take it, I have a very hard time believing that there will be any appetite for the shared sacrifice demanded by a lockdown in order to protect these people.

Recessions are not caused by viruses. They’re caused by lockdowns.

So if you don’t have lockdowns, you won’t have a recession. You will have a whole lot of unnecessary suffering and death, but unfortunately, I think we’ve reached the point that the majority of the country is OK with that.

New Variants vs. mRNA Vaccines

The real danger to the economy is not the Delta variant, but an as-yet-unknown variant that might be produced in the future. So far, the variants that have popped up all over the world have varied in their transmissibility and deadliness, but so far haven’t been able to evade the protection that vaccines provide, especially among those that are fully vaccinated with two doses.

If that changes, of course, all bets are off.

This is the nightmare scenario that’s keeping health experts up at night, but something that gives me optimism that this won’t spin us back to 2020’s year of endless lockdowns is just how amazing of a scientific achievement that mRNA vaccines are.

Unlike traditional vaccines which normally take decades to develop, mRNA vaccines allow scientists to almost 3D-print a piece of RNA that causes our cells to produce any arbitrary protein spike they want. The current mRNA vaccines produced by Pfizer reportedly only took 3 MONTHS to develop after the original virus was sequenced by researchers in Wuhan.

The reason it took almost a year for the vaccines to become available was because of testing, getting through the FDA regulatory requirements, and ramping up production to be able to produce the volume that we needed. If we were to need a new, updated vaccine because of a new variant cropping up, the amount of time needed to bring this updated formula to market would be way, way less because creating a booster to an already-approved vaccine doesn’t require the same amount of testing to get approvals.

In fact, Pfizer and Moderna are already designing booster shots that target Delta. Scientific consensus is that COVID will never become eradicated like polio. Instead, it will remain endemic in our population like the flu and common cold, mutating and evolving over time, and we’ll keep needing to get re-immunized each year to protect against new variants.

In that way, the long-term destiny of COVID isn’t wiping out humanity. Instead, it will eventually become just another annoying, but seasonal respiratory disease like the flu.

“Sorry, boss. I can’t come into work today. I think I caught the COVID.”

“Oh, OK. Well, drink lots of chicken soup. Hope you feel better soon.”

Wouldn’t that be nice? Now if we could just convince these people to take their damned shots…

Conclusion

This has been a long, difficult 16 months for everyone, and the last thing anyone wants is for us to regress back into living in our basements like some common troll. And while there are still troubling signs that we may never completely eradicate this damned disease, I believe we’ve reached the stage that (in the US and Canada, at least), we’ll be able to live with this virus and keep it reasonably under control while we go about our lives going forward without resorting to shutting the economy down again. Call me an optimist, but I really do think that this recession is over for good.

What do you think? Are we more or less done with this pandemic or is there a scary variant lurking around the corner that will put us all back in lockdown? Let’s hear it in the comments below!


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191 thoughts on “Will the Delta Variant Cause a New Recession?”

  1. This was an interesting read, and as much as I can be empathic (and I can be occasionally) I just don’t feel any empathy for those who choose to be unvaccinated.

    “In a recent poll, 41% of registered Republicans say they will never get the vaccine … nearly half of Republican voters still think the pandemic is a hoax and that the vaccine is poisonous.”

    I used to work with a guy who falls into that group; a science denier (when it suited him), anti vax, young earth believer, fundamentalist Christian, very right leaning. (the stories I could tell about that guy…) The guy was an absolute moron, no critical thinking skills what so ever.

    “Screw ’em. Let them die, they did it to themselves.” – Yeah that is where I find myself at the moment. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. On the plus side, in a few years we should have less morons to worry about.

    Harsh? Yes, but after what we have seen over the past 18 months is that a surprise?

    1. Ironically, since COVID appears to have some pretty big cognitive impacts we might be living with just as many morons as before. Potentially even more.

    2. “I used to work with a guy who falls into that group; a science denier (when it suited him), anti vax, young earth believer, fundamentalist Christian, very right leaning.”

      I’m always curious, who hires somebody like that? If you tell them to move some pallets, do they start screaming about THEIR FREEDUMB and start accusing you of trying to cancel them or something?

      1. A North American multinational. The dude worked in IT as a network engineer. He also liked to sexually harass the women in the department. Very very creepy dude, who was eventually fired for lack of performance.

  2. Darwinism at work.
    Eventually all the Republicans will die out.
    Things will return to normal.
    All will be well once again.

    1. I will say this is a bit black/white thinking.

      This is like grouping all liberals into the neosocialist camp.

      I challenge you to improve your diction/rhetoric to better address the problem.

      For example, this comment encompasses the majority (59%) of Republicans that HAVE received the vaccination and is intellectually incorrect (as you say all Republicans will be gone when a majority is being discussed).

      I think your argument becomes more intellectually honest when you nuance the argument, because it is intellectually lazy to say either side, in generalities, is good or bad, as there are examples of dishonesty, corruption, contradiction, virtue signaling, etc.etc. on both “sides” of the political aisle…(or isle might be more representative as it seems like our elected officials represent the normal person less and less in both parties).

      Personally, I am very central, in terms of political leaning, because, as with most things, neither side is completely in alignment with what is best for everyone.

      1. I didn’t say all Republicans or all conservatives were rabid anti-vaxxers. Quite the opposite, actually. I merely pointed out that for some reason 41% of American conservatives are anti-vaxxers, and I still have zero idea why.

        1. I was replying to the comment left, not your article.

          I left a seperate comment agreeing with your assessment!

        2. You did say that “almost half” weren’t vaccinated, even though 59% is much closer to “2/3 are vaccinated”. Some articles I read put the right wing never vaxers at 30%.

          I understand you have a political worldview, and this is your glass half empty, but I believe in the long run only the extremists will not vaccinate, and hey, they will own their own consequences as you rightly pointed out.

          There are many Black Democrats in my area I have encouraged unsuccessfully to vaccinate, so the right by no means has a monopoly on ignorance. What is the Democrat never vax percentage? 10%? 20%? Idk. For sure it’s a significant number.

          I agree anti vax is asinine. The phenomenon precedes covid. It’s just dangerous conspiracy theory.

      1. Spoken from a true liberal who believes everything the left, one-sided media tells them. Turn off the news, stop living in fear and do some research on your own. Your taking an injection for a virus with a 99.7% survival rate and have no idea what’s in the shot. Hardly sounds like a pandemic. The censorship for an opposing view or trying to research and educate youself concerning this virus/vaccine should bother EVERYONE and raise eyebrows as to what really is the big picture. In-depth reasearch, common sense and some critical thinking will go a long way in order to make informed, thought out decisions. News and social media is not research. Many well respected and very intelligent doctors, viralogists, etc that have been censored tell a different story stating the jab alters DNA and compromises/supresses your innate immune system and sets up the vaccinated for big trouble in the very near future. Maybe it’s the vaccinated with a crushed immune system that will drop like flies. Either way would be a bad outcome. Think for yourself and stop watching mainstream media.

      2. I’ve been reading your blog for a long time because I enjoy your writing and I think you’re doing an amazing thing teaching regular people how to invest. But dude, you really should get off of Reddit. It is clearly not good for your mental health. Leopards at my face is a hate sub. Your family escaped authoritarianism and you are a fan of people hating on dissenters and differing opinions? I don’t get it.

      3. Huh? Are you serious, turn off MSNBC or actually look where most deaths occurred. Interesting you haven’t mentioned those states, I wonder why.

  3. You hit the nail on the head.

    This is a very weird situation that makes almost 0 sense.

    You have the traditional conservatives who have personal reasons for believing what they do (to each their own) who, in my mind, make up the 59% of conservatives who have received the vaccination.

    Then you have the neo-totalitarian conservative crowd that is quite concerning in many areas (i.e. Capitol insurrection, vaccine/science deniers, etc)… and I think that adds to the loss of empathy…because this “demographic” of people is fundamentally more dangerous than political opposition (which in a democratic society is welcomed/encouraged).

    I think your assessment is very well done and I agree with the logic/reasoning.

    I was more empathetic until last week when my 2nd grade cousin contracted covid because she lives in a state with virtually no vaccination…she has no say in where she lives or to get the shot, yet she’s at risk because of these twits….

  4. I don’t see a Delta variant recession in the cards. Then again, my crystal ball is broken and out of warranty and I’m out of tea leaves.
    That said, as a vaccinated person at peace with the decision to get vaccinated, there is a side of me who’s running out of empathy for those who refuse to get vaccinated. Namely, those who want it both ways: They want to give a former U.S. President credit for a vaccine they don’t want in the first place (make sense of that for me, please).
    You hear this, too: “I don’t trust the government and the vaccine is not approved by the FDA.” They don’t trust the government, yet they want this vaccine to be cleared by a (wait for it) government agency. This is the part where my empathy is on short supply. But, I digress.

    1. I know, it’s like this catch-22 vortex of stupid. But point out the internal hypocrisy and then they start screaming about antifa for…some reason.

  5. The thing that scares me is the whole long-haul Covid thing. If this disease is here to stay, like the yearly round of the Flu, then that means I have so many more changes to catch something that, once the initial suffering is over, createsorgan failures and/or lasting brain damage. I’d rather be in lockdown.

    1. I read somewhere that they found that people suffering from long-haul COVID somehow got their symptoms to go away after getting the vaccine. Very strange, but cool if scalable!

  6. It’s really odd how some people believe that there’s a microchip in the vaccine. That’s crazy! It’s how it will make me magnetic that concerns me.

  7. I wonder what percentage of the unvaccinated crowd already had COVID and perhaps wrongly thinks they don’t need it or perhaps that it isn’t urgent.

    Googling around the Internet it seems the percentages for these numbers varies a lot by article. I definitely agree that the numbers skew White and Republican. The good news is that even among those groups vaccination percentages continue to increase.

    Personally I don’t fit into a “Liberal” nor “Conservative” mold, as I form opinions on individual issues based on my own reasoning of the facts and not ideology. I am a big believer in free markets, for example, but also am an atheist who is just fine with legalized marijuana and gay marriage.

    I had COVID in February and as soon as the required 90 days had passed, I got vaccinated in early June. I saw it as not only protecting myself and our economy, but protecting others that might not fight the illness off as ably as I thankfully did.

    If I may offer some insight into the thought process of these anti-vax people. I think somehow the issues of masks, social distancing, etc. became highly politicized, so they stupidly think they are making some kind of political statement. This is the problem with ideologs of any affiliation, it turns decision making into an us/them tribalistic process rather than one of critical thinking.

  8. I found this post most uplifting. Thank you!

    A few Covid incidents close to us:

    My sister caught Covid from her boss early in 2020. He was an anti-masker. She survived, he didn’t. He was in his 70s, and believed god would protect him.

    My son’s co-worker, a firmly religious individual who believed his faith would protect him refused to be vaccinated, died from Covid last week after a month in intensive care. He was age 38.

  9. I’m having such a difficult time empathizing with anti-vaxxers. Yes, there’s a lot of disinformation out there, but there’s also LOTS of doctors and experts patiently taking time to try and educate people about their worries.

    I do work in international development and let me tell you there are MILLIONS of people around the world literally dying to get their hands on vaccines, and in North America some people couldn’t be bothered to do the research and get vaccinated. It makes my blood boil, we are so privileged here compared to countries around the world who don’t have the resources we do.

    1. Just read “The Believing Brain” by Michael Shermer. It explains why sometimes intelligent people believe very stupid, and often harmful things.

  10. I think reluctance to vaccinations has more to do with how “visible” covid is/was. Early on (Spring 2020), covid was a uniquely urban affliction. In congested populations and highly urbanized locals, people were getting sick and dying in large numbers. In rural settings, even to this day, covid is viewed as rare. It’s not uncommon not to even know a person who’s had covid if you live in a smaller town.

    I live in a semi-rural town in California (extremely liberal), and I don’t get the sense that people are frantic about getting vaccinated, which I believe has to do with it being a small town. San Francisco is about an hour drive away and people there are religiously hysterical about getting vaccinated. In my smaller town, I know very left leaning people who have yet to be vaccinated. There’s simply no sense of urgency. I’m actually surprised at some very left leaning people I know who have yet to be vaccinated or waited a long time to be vaccinated, even though the vaccines have been readily available since last March….again, I attribute this to the fact that it’s a smaller town.

    On the left you’ve got people who wear masks all the time, such as when driving or hiking in remote wilderness areas alone. On the right there’s people who won’t get vaccinated or wear masks ever. My gut instinct that both of these groups will come to an untimely end…the never-Vax’rs on the right will die of Delta, the always-mask’rs on the left will go insane and commit suicide.

    Regarding the economy, some other unknown (or little known) event will cause it to crash, not the Delta variant.

    1. You are overgeneralizing. You might consider me an always-masker, but it’s not because I’m really worried, will go insane, or commit suicide. It’s because it doesn’t bother me at all. I could wear a mask all day every day, I just don’t care. I wear one when I’m out so I don’t have to think about what situation I’m in and whether I should be wearing one or not. I wear one in my car so I don’t have to think about taking it off or putting it on every time I get on and off the car. It doesn’t hurt anything, so why not? I also have unvaccinated children in my household.

  11. If the mainstream media and health agencies didn’t suppress treatments that highly credentialed scientists and doctors have developed, the pandemic and lockdowns might have been over already. Our family is taking ivermectin as a prophylactic because we trust the studies that show it is effective as a treatment and a preventative measure (against variants too!). I’m hoping this becomes a valid and accepted option for people who have concerns about the vaccines or want to wait until there are more long term reports on the safety. That could really bring an end to the pandemic.

    1. It’s amazing to me that ppl who like to call others “sheep” are the ones willingly taking livestock de-wormer.

  12. I was surprised that the rise in Delta cases lead to a HUGE stock market decline. I was like ????

    If anything like the last lockdown taught us, is that a pandemic HELPS the economy for some unearthly reason. It was a great time to get greedy and buy up lots of things.

  13. I think that there is a very strong desire to not lockdown again, no matter the human cost (we only “think of the children” if it’s opening schools. Not properly equipping schools or hiring teachers or supporting at risk kids, of course). At least in Alab-erta.

    What I think could still cause a recession is turning off the taps. CERB replacements are ending, worker supports for businesses are coming to a close, and there’s no turn to UBI in sight. I would love your thoughts on what the impact on the end to supports for businesses and individuals could mean (again, especially in Alab-erta where we also won’t take the childcare supports because we only take federal money if we can give it to big foreign businesses, and never if it helps women).

  14. From Reuters fact check: Does this mean that more vaccinated people are dying?? How do we really interpret data? A conservative friend sent this about UK deaths and says research in deaths in Israel of the vaccinated is also high. How is that possible when US deaths are of the unvaccinated…who is right? I’m so confused.
    YS AGO
    Fact Check-England’s COVID-19 death statistics do not suggest vaccines aren’t working
    By Reuters Fact Check

    5 MIN READ

    An online blog saying 62% of England’s recent COVID-19 deaths are among vaccinated individuals has taken Public Health England (PHE) data out of context. Medical experts told Reuters it is also important to consider the demographics of vaccinated people.

    The headline of the blog post, published on June 26, reads: “Whilst you’ve been distracted by Hancock’s affair, PHE released a report revealing 62% of alleged Covid deaths are people who’ve been vaccinated” (archive.is/CokVU). The first part of the headline refers to a scandal that led to the resignation of then British health minister Matt Hancock.

    According to the blog, a PHE briefing revealed “the majority of alleged Covid-19 deaths are significantly higher in people who have had at least one dose of the Covid-19 vaccine, with the highest number of deaths occurring in people who are supposed to be fully vaccinated.”

    The blog has also been shared on social media and can be found on Facebook (here , here and here , and on Instagram here , here and here .

    Referring to table 4 on page 13 of the PHE briefing released on June 25 (here), the blog details the calculations made to reach its conclusion.

    The table shows the total number of deaths in people who tested positive for the Delta variant of COVID-19 from Feb. 1 to June 21 was 117. Of those fatalities, 20 individuals had received one dose of a vaccine while 50 people had received two. Forty-four people were unvaccinated, and the vaccination status of three people was unknown.

    The headline of the blog claims this equates to 62% of the 117 fatalities being people who received either one or two doses of a COVID-19 vaccine. The blog itself, however, says this figure is actually 60%, which is closer to Reuters’ calculation of 59.82%. This 2% discrepancy appears to stem from the headline percentage including the three people whose vaccination status was unknown.

    1. Melinda: This is a simple matter.

      Imagine two rooms, each with 100 people.

      Imagine that the virus has a 10% fatality for un-vaccinated people and a 2% fatality for vaccinated (of course those are made up numbers, they are used just to illustrate the point).

      Room 1 has 10 people who are vaccinated and 90 who are not. The Delta variant begins spreading and everyone is infected. You will have 9 fatalities among the un-vaccinated (10% of 90 people) and either 0 or 1 fatality among the vaccinated. (since 2% or 10 people is 0.2, and you can not have 0.2 fatalities, it will either be no fatalities or 1).

      Room 2 has 90 people who are vaccinated and 10 who are not (opposite ratio). The Delta variant begins spreading and everyone is infected. You will have 1 fatality among the un-vaccinated (10% of 10 people) and either 1 or 2 fatalities among the vaccinated. (2% or 90 people is 1.8, again, it will be rounded either up or down).

      So, in the more vaccinated room, there are twice as many fatalities among the vaccinated compared to the un-vaccinated! How can that be?!?

      As more of the population gets vaccinated, the overall death rate plummets (room 1 had 9 or 10 death, room 2 had 2 or 3). However, since more people are vaccinated (and a vaccine is not 100% effective), you will see more and more vaccinated people who die.

      Take the two extremes – if no one is vaccinated, all the death is among un-vaccinated people. Interestingly, if EVERYONE is vaccinated, ALL the death is amongst vaccinated people. It is true, in a fully-vaccinated country, 100% of fatalities will be in the vaccinated. But the total, the 100%, will be a much smaller number.

      This fallacy is unfortunately commonly used by anti-vexxers to dismiss the vaccine. They take advantage of people lack of simple statistics understanding to twist the numbers.

  15. Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism in this case.

    Lockdowns are not a function of the virus deadliness, nor of the burden placed on the healthcare system. Lockdowns are now a form a virtue signaling by governments, not a rational public health decision balancing positive and negative effects. They have now been normalized as a way to reduce the arbitrary number of daily infections. So long as we keep testing, we will keep finding people who test positive, as being vaccinated does not prevent the virus from entering your body.

    So long as we ask healthy, vaccinated people to take a test in order to board a flight, or go into a theatre, or send their kids to camp we will keep finding the virus even in people who are feeling fine. Also, as mentioned above by Melinda, the vaccine efficacy appears to waning a bit faster than hoped. Combine this with the higher infectiousness of the Delta variant and you have new lockdowns in Israel (who is leading the world in vaccination).
    🙁

    In the beginning it was all about “flattening the curve”. But many countries have very successfully flattened the curve yet lockdowns remained. Just look at Australia and NZ – virtually no disease burden yet people are locked in for months with no end in sight.

    What I am most worried about is the ease at which we have allowed for lockdowns, coupled with unlimited government support, to become the norm. Telling people to stay at home while giving them money to stay at home is a terrible way to govern. It will only lead to more centralized and big government, more dependency of people on government, and a slow but consistent march away from capitalism and into central planning. And when this happens, what will become of our portfolios?!?

  16. Interesting when you look at the Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity in the US. It tells a different story than your partisan framing of people that don’t want to be vaccinated.

  17. People talk about vaccines being the right thing to get, but at the same time there is no evidence whatsoever that claim vaccines to give any sort of protection. Lack of symptoms do not indicate protection nor immunity. You will still get the virus no less. You will only have no symptom to show for to raise any alarm in case you get the virus.

    Whenever someone says vaccine works, he is actually spreading fake news. Clinical researches can be categorized into 2: drug company-sponsored ones and independently researched ones. All drug company-sponsored ones are in one way or another in “favor” of vaccine. None of the independent studies are in favor of vaccine. So you the people have a choice whether to believe in the ones that have financial interest, or the ones that have none. Most people believe in the ones with financial interest.

    There are reasons why some people are anti-vaccine. It’s not because they are as stupid as you think they are, as if you are some sort of super intelligent creature that never make dumb things. Ultimately, most people think along the thought process laid out by the government and so-called “experts”. If you think you have independent critical thinking, you may be wrong.

    If you think and believe vaccines truly works, then go get some for yourself and relax. You are safe now. Don’t worry about the anti-vaccine people. Humans never have any empathy in the first place anyway, so don’t suddenly get started and be pretentious.

    The problem with people that are pro-vaccine is they are so worried of the anti-vaccine people. Worried about what??? If you have gotten your vaccine, will you still be getting infected? If so, then your vaccine does not work. And if your vaccine does work, then why all the worry on the anti-vaccine people? If there is a new and more powerful strain, then just wait for a new vaccine and then go get more of it for yourself. Don’t force others to take the vaccine on behalf of you.

    1. Unfortunately you are mixing truths with mistakes.

      But first, let me say that I fully agree with you on: “If you think and believe vaccines truly works, then go get some for yourself and relax. You are safe now. “. There are societal implications for having un-vaccinated people around, but I agree with you that we are having a modern witch-hunt against people who doubt the Covid vaccine and it needs to stop.

      Now, to the biology:
      It is true that being vaccinated does not prevent the virus from infecting you. It is not some force field that physically stops viral particles from being inhaled.

      However, what the vaccines do is train your body to fight a pathogen better and faster.
      If you are un-vaccinated it takes on average about 7-10 days for your body to start mounting what is called an *adaptive* immune response. During this time your body is using its *innate* immune response, but the adaptive part is the one which will ultimately kick the pathogen out. During those 7-10 days the pathogen is replicating relatively unchecked, which leads to more cells being damaged, more symptoms because of the damage, and more ability to infect others as you spread more viral particles around.

      Once all is said and done and you recovered, the *adaptive* aspect remains as memory cells and next time you encounter the same pathogen your body can jump-start this immune response almost right away, without the 7-10 days delay, therefore kicking the pathogen out quicker, with less damage to your cells (and therfore less symptoms), and less viral particles around so less chance of infecting others.
      Again, less is not none. Less chance of symptoms, less chance of dying, less chance of infecting, but never zero chance. Nothing is 100% effective.

      The vaccine takes those 7-10 days and initiates them artificially. When you later get infected your body just fights the pathogen off quicker, easier, with milder symptoms. someone who was at great risk because their immune system was not great might have a mild case instead of requiring hospital admission. Someone who otherwise would have had the sniffles might not feel anything at all. Whatever was your baseline for fighting off the pathogen, it is not a better baseline. And the same comment about “less chance” not being “zero chance”.

      I have my doubts about this particular vaccine too (specifically the mRNA/viral vector ones), but at least have your doubts grounded in good understanding of whats going on. By the way, my doubts are not about the effectiveness. There is zero doubt that they work.

      1. Thank you for your reply.

        You are explaining how vaccines work, in an ideal, conceptual, and theoretical manner. The thing is, vaccine is still a medical treatment that remain unproven to work. I don’t know of any independent studies that claim any of it works. But I do know of many independent studies that say it doesn’t. The studies that say it works are all paid for.

        Getting less symptoms does not mean getting less of everything else that’s bad, i.e. less dying or less chance of infection. It simply means if you ever get it, you will not know it. And as result, you will be less likely to take remedial action in case you get it, simply because you have no symptom of it. Even the drug companies themselves (that paid for the clinical studies) do not claim the vaccines will result in less dying or less infection. You can still get infected and die just like anyone else. You just have less symptoms to show for (and may end up becoming a carrier too as result, since you won’t know it and you would go about your social life as normal). So the people that say vaccines will treat the virus, that you will get less symptoms, and as result you will also get better immunity, and thus die less, etc etc benefits beyond getting less symptoms, are actually spreading lies and fake news. Be reminded, even the studies do not claim getting better or stronger immunity. Getting better immunity (thus less chance of dying and getting infected) is the result of misinterpretation.

        1. Look, I’m sorry, but it seems you have gotten poor education growing up.

          You say: “The thing is, vaccine is still a medical treatment that remain unproven to work. I don’t know of any independent studies that claim any of it works”.

          What is the kind of proof you require?
          What is the kind of “independence” that you require?

          The original discoveries of vaccines were done by farmers and independent physicians. Back then (late 1700’s) there was no “big pharma”, and each physicians was in essence an independent scientist. When Jenner took little boys and exposed them to cowpox (to vaccinate them), and later exposed them to smallpox and shown that none of them developed smallpox, is this “proof”? Is this “independent”?

          The biological studies that lead to the modern techniques were done mostly in universities research labs. They are of course funded by the public. Is public funding considered “independent” or is it considered “corrupt government”?!?

          What kind of proof do you require?

          There is proof on the basic cell-biology level to show that T-cells and B-cells get stimulated to fight a pathogen after they are introduced to a vaccine. You can show in a lab that those cells, isolated from the body, will kill the pathogen.

          There is proof on an organism level that shows if you take a group of unvaccinated animals and try to infect them, and compare it to a vaccinated group, the vaccinated group fares way better. They are less sick and die less.

          There is comparative proof when you compare countries, or periods in history, or cities, or any two groups, that shows that in the vaccinated population less people die of a particular pathogen. This is absolutely true for each and every childhood vaccine. When was the last time you met a person with polio? When did you meet someone who died of tetanus?

          You say: “Getting less symptoms does not mean getting less of everything else that’s bad, i.e. less dying or less chance of infection. It simply means if you ever get it, you will not know it.”.

          This is simply untrue and frankly, ignorant. When you die of a disease it *is* eventually linked to your symptoms and the severity. If you get infected with influenza and have a bit of a fever and slight cough you are unlikely to have your life changed forever. If you happen to develop a severe cough and short-of-breath it is usually indicative of lung damage. The symptoms are linked to the damage done to your body. You may have permeant lung damage that will stay with you for life.

          Look, if you do not want to get vaccinated it’s fine by me. But the lack of education you present is honestly astounding. I don’t know where and when you went to school, but they did a shit job of science education.
          I also do not understand why you read this blog, as it heavily depends on mathing-shit-up. If you can compare two ETFs or different tax regimens, you should be easily able to understand medical studies and read the proof for yourself.

          1. There is substantial proof that most if not all of the major diseases historically went on a significant decline of up to 90%, before there was even a vaccine for it. Most of the reason for the decline was simple hygiene standard, not vaccine.

            When it comes to vaccines, there will be persistent argument for and against it. I suggest you to be humble and learn from the arguments of the anti-vaccine people and learn the many reasoning against unproven vaccines.

            A waste of my time if I choose to get into prolonged argue in this. Many have been there and done that with futility. And I will not repeat the same mistake.

            If people of your kind truly believe in vaccine, that’s fine with me. But don’t go around forcing others to take vaccine.

            You belittle my education and such, and you question why I read this blog, as if you are a medical expert. Here lies your very own stupidity. This blog is about FIRE, not medical stuff. I come here for FIRE, not medical stuff. But since this particular one talk about medical stuff, then I have the right to participate as well. Are you saying the writer is an expert both in FIRE and medicine? Really? Or are you saying the writer is an expert in medicine as long as he/she share the same medical understanding as you, i.e. your own bias?

            All your arguments are bullshit anyway. I am not going to waste my time debunking each of them. Not because I am wrong but because I realize such effort is futile. The same can be said of your effort and belittlement.

            Simpleton mind: “If you can compare two ETFs or different tax regimens, you should be easily able to understand medical studies and read the proof for yourself.”
            I guess finance graduates can now claim to be a medical expert too, based on your simplistic statement.

            But enough of this bickering. Based on your style of argument, I know where you come from. And if you truly believe vaccine works, then damn good for you. I could not care less about you anyway. Just don’t bother the people that choose not to be vaccinated. If they die as result, it’s none of your business.

            1. On the contrary, its the anti vaxxers who seem to care a lot about those taking the vaccine.

              If you dont want to take the vaccine, dont take it. But it seems anti vaxxers seem determined to spread their ignorance. I see plenty of them protesting at vaccination sites. Why?

              1. First, the anti-vaxxers are far more informed than most people like you.

                Second, most anti-vaxxers started off being pro-vaxxers, but ended up suffering the consequences and turned to being anti-vaxxers later.

                Robert DeNiro’s son turned autistic overnight after getting vaccine. Robert expressed regret for turning down the “Vaxxed” documentary.

                It is the pro-vaxxers that keep shutting down the anti-vaxxers through character assassinations.

                If vaccines truly work, then free up the anti-vaxxers and let them speak up.

                Why the fear?

                1. “It is the pro-vaxxers that keep shutting down the anti-vaxxers through character assassinations.”

                  What you call character assassination, I call an accurate description 🙂

                    1. Doesnt matter, I dont have an agenda.

                      All I care is, frauds like Wakefield be called out. You can call it character assassination or whatever you want. I love it!

                  1. Now it is very clear to me your moral standards is actually very very low.

                    Okay with tyranny. Okay with hypocrisy. Okay with name calling. Okay with calling others fraud without giving them an equal chance to speak up.

                    You and I are not from the same league. I for one has strictly high moral standards for myself as well as others. Sure, you may disagree but I am fed up with people being okay with tyranny, okay with hypocrisy, etc, that I feel compelled to do name calling. If you were a wise, reasonable, and intelligent person, you can bet I would never do any name calling.

                  2. Yes, as your policy is forced vaccination against personal liberty, that is tyranny.

                    If you think forcing someone against his will is acceptable, then the same standard should be applied onto you just the same. Yet again your hypocrisy and double standards.

                    You can see throughout my comments, not a single one of them suggested vaccination nor no vaccination. I keep stressing people to choose what they want and then mind their own business. I disagree with people that impose standards against other people’s will.

                    Unlike you, I do not practice tyranny.

  18. At the risk of sounding political, anyone with commonsense knows that there are only 2 ‘real’ viruses that people need to be vaccinated against, for their own longevity and emotional wellbeing, namely the Tump Virus and the Tucker Carlson virus. The variants of these 2 viruses have spread far and wide and have infected a sizable majority of the US population. Get rid of these two viruses…and Covid and its variants will be history, and thus prevent any Covid-related recessions too.

  19. Let’s not forget about that age old source of dangerous and cooky beliefs: Religion!

    Recall that your Republicans over-index on religious membership.

    One encouraging thing from the article below is that even in this societal group the % of never vaxers has declined 2 points in a couple of months.

    Wanderer, recall Moore’s technology adoption curve. Hopefully over time the laggards will adopt!

    Personally I can’t wish ill or even withhold sympathy for those who for some reason have unscientific and socially harmful beliefs about vaccines. Unfortunately all of our minds deceive us in different ways.

    I hope the truth prevails and that they and those around them avoid disease and death. I believe this is the humane perspective, regardless of their political beliefs.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-evangelicals-resist-covid-19-vaccine-most-among-religious-groups-11627464601?st=cyxnp991x2tr62q&reflink=article_copyURL_share

    1. “Personally I can’t wish ill or even withhold sympathy for those who for some reason have unscientific and socially harmful beliefs about vaccines.”

      It is possible those people are very scientific, but you just don’t know about it. People like Andrew Wakefield and many others are very very scientific in their researches and arguments. Nothing to do with religion.

  20. For other posters and readers who want to have a positive impact on the matter at hand, remember that ridiculing or castigating only galvanizes the anti-vaxer’s untenable position. An Us/Them tribalistic response that is all too human.

    If you want to do some good in the world, and perhaps even save lives, consider being influential instead.

    1. I would like to suggest an open public debate between the pro-vaxxers and the anti-vaxxers without any restraint.

      I would like to suggest people that claim to be medical experts to debate with Andrew Wakefield and others in the open public without any restraint.

      Avoid name-calling. Avoid personal attacks. Avoid making accusations of rape. Just make an open public debate without any restraint on both side.

      And have all the major medias to cover such debate. I dare the powers that be to do just that.

      I would enjoy listening to such debate to the fullest.

      So far the only thing I’ve seen are the pro-vaxxers arguing one-sided behind the walls. What are you guys so afraid of public open debate if you are right?

        1. I am not a medical expert. If you are a medical expert, then you should debate with another medical expert.

          I am an expert in some other area that I believe you are not. But this is not a show on whose genital is bigger. This is about shining light at the truth. Don’t stop people like Andrew Wakefield from making their points. Don’t do personal attack on them. Don’t censor independent researches that contradict vaccine. Let them be revealed in full public. If the pro-vaxxers are really legit, then they should prevail. But so far, all I am seeing are a bunch of cowards.

        1. I am not determined to force others to NOT take the vaccine.

          Rather, I am offended by this article that condemn the people that choose not to vaccinate.

          Look at what is written in this article. Let’s quote:
          “Screw ’em. Let them die, they did it to themselves.”
          “Wouldn’t that be nice? Now if we could just convince these people to take their damned shots…”

          Unless you are blind, you need to realize it is the pro-vaxxers that started the condemnation. Not the anti-vaxxers as you falsely imply.

          That’s why I wrote in the past that whether the anti-vaxxers choose not to vaccinate and end up dying is none of you pro-vaxxers business. You have zero right to condemn.

          Tell the pro-vaxxers to mind their own business instead.

          1. Lol. You CHOSE to read this article and get offended.

            What do you mean “zero right to condemn”? You have the right to not get triggered.

            On the other hand, anti vaxxers harass people in line to get their vaccines.

            Some even dressed up as doctors and gave people wrong directions or told them that the centers are out of vaccines when they werent.

            On any article about vaccines, anti vaxxers start commenting and liking each other’s comments.

            You people need to mind your own business.

            1. If “zero right to condemn” does not sit well with you, then I do have right to condemn after all. Unless you are a hypocrite. Likewise you have the right to not get triggered.

              I don’t know of any anti-vaxxer that harass people. But I do know of a lot of pro-vaxxers in the government making rules on restrictions because of the people that choose not to vaccinate.

              I understand this blog condemns the unvaccinated for causing them all the troubles. This is selfish human behavior, as usual. If I want to condemn, I would condemn the government, not the unvaccinated.

              Please don’t make accusations and slanders of people dressing up as doctors and gave wrong directions. Are you such a lowlife? Can’t you live by without slandering?

              1. “Screw ’em. Let them die, they did it to themselves.”

                I dont see anything wrong with this. You have the right to choose and face the consequences 🙂

                1. “Wouldn’t that be nice? Now if we could just convince these people to take their damned shots…”

                  Do you also see nothing wrong with this?

                  1. Nope, I see nothing wrong with this.

                    Anti vaxxers have been trying to convince normal people to not take vaccines for years.

                    1. In this case, I can also impose whatever the standard I like onto you. And I see nothing wrong with that.

  21. Truth: The damages done by vaccines on victims in the US are so prevalent and significant that vaccine-related court cases are being carried out in closed door with multi billions of compensation to the victims paid with public money. Pharma companies literally have no financial obligation on whatsoever the damages from their products. If your car explodes, you would have full liberty to sue the auto company into oblivion. But not pharma companies. The taxpayers would foot the bill instead.

    Yeah, sure. Someone may argue such cases are just anomalies/outliers. But if the pro-vax medical people are right, then why are they still hiding behind closed doors? Get the fuck out in the open so everyone can see you!

    Have an open debate with full international coverage against the anti-vaxxers. Don’t do name-calling and throwing accusations behind the media. Don’t call people like Andrew Wakefield, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and others as quacks. Give them full liberty to present their case and crash them in their own courtyard. I dare the powers that be to do just that. Cowards.

    It’s when you are wrong, that you would not dare to do just that. Cowards.

    It’s when you are wrong, that the only thing you can do is character assassination. Cowards.

    Unfortunately, brain-dead pro-vaxxers do not see that.

    1. Your comments, facts and insight is spot on. Your wasting your time and energy on these mindless sheep that can’t think for themselves and only regurgitate what the left media talking heads tell them to do. They take all the vaccines and soon to arrive booster shots they can and have no idea whats in them. This back and forth bickering is a no win situation for either side of the argument/debate. Use your brain, apply some common sense, logic, crtical thinking, do some damn research (watching CNN and using Google dosen’t count) and then if you decide taking the jab is worth it, go for it.
      Disappointing to see this blog skew from FIRE to this. This is where F….Y.. money comes in handy. Unsubscribe and focus on other, more important financial blogs and websites.

      1. You are the first and probably the only person to agree with me. And honestly it is very hard to believe that is even true without any pretense.

        Still, I never ask for vaccination.
        Neither have I ask for no vaccination.
        I only ask for people, regardless of their choice, to be left alone.

        Do not say things like “maybe if we can convince them to take their damn shots” or something like that.

        Otherwise, imagine someone say “maybe if we can convince them to reject all the vaccines”. How would you feel?

        Problem with human nature is “I am right. And you are wrong”.

        I am not arguing who is right or wrong. I am just asking people to mind their own business.

        Unfortunately, there are plenty of problems with human nature. Another one of them is “You mind your own business. And I mind yours too”, i.e. hypocrisy.

  22. Maverick, I was proposing a debate between observers of the issue, namely you and me, not medical experts. We could have a panel of physicians judge it, equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats. Let me know if you are interested.

    I am pro liberty and free speech, and I welcome Wakefield and others to present their evidence. If you read my posts I am calling for a more civil debate of the facts not name calling.

    Most all medications have risks of side effects, some even lethal. Anti depressants are known to cause suicide in some patients, for example. For all medications physicians must judge the benefits to outweigh the risks. In the case of vaccines, this is indubitably true over a very long history.

    Scientific communities will always have dissenters. It’s what makes science work. We have to look at the preponderance of evidence and the evolving body of knowledge that science creates to make decisions. The burden of proof for vaccines, including the COVID vaccine, has obviously been met.

    Finally, you are calling for intellectual debate but resort to using profane statements. Seems inconsistent.

    1. You are offering a debate between two non-experts, and you think that is a wise call?

      If you are here for a debate, I would have to make a confession that my dick is actually size S.

      If you are a knowledge-seeker, then I believe you already know where to look, but deliberately choose to ignore.

      If the burden of proof for vaccine has been met, then please stop character assassination on people like Andrew and the rest. Let these people be free in their speech.

      I am calling for intellectual debate between experts from pro-vaxxers and anti-vaxxers. I am not calling for debate between non-experts like you do. Obviously, you have interest to show the size of your dick. Even if I know more than you, it would still be egoistic and foolish for a non-expert to brag about the thing he is not an expert in, or to brag about defeating another non-expert that just happen to be slightly less smart. Only a lesser mind would appeal to such victory.

      When it comes to debate on this subject, you are not the first. I have been there and done that, single-handedly with groups of people multiple times. And the end result is a massive waste of time that I should have spent on other more important things.

      If you are here to compete on ego, I have already said the size of my dick is S. I am wise enough today not to waste anymore time on such debate. But I am very certain, based on your style of argument, that you are certainly NOT a knowledge-seeker. You are very full of yourself.

      1. This is what is called an ad hominem attack. You are making this about me and not about the evidence. You haven’t addressed the central points of my argument regarding medical treatments and side effects.

        In my proposed debate I would rely on expertise and scientific knowledge from SMEs, and cite my sources. I’m simply willing to articulate that body of knowledge for the benefit of observers.

        I would also welcome the expert debate you are calling for. Perhaps organizing one would be a good use of your time?

        1. The people that are truly sincere in knowledge would naturally seek out the arguments from both sides. If you can arrange debate between Andrew Wakefield, Robert Kennedy, and the rest of the other experts (anti-vax group) vs the pro-vax group of experts, with international coverage, then please go ahead.

          I have watched several documentaries on vaccines in the past, from the side of anti-vax. People that are humble and open for knowledge may seek out such documentaries for themselves, pending no censorship by the medias.

          I made a suggestion, but I have no interest in doing all the dirty works in organizing one. However, I am sure the anti-vax people would be welcoming to such suggestion. If they are not eager to speak up, they would not be doing so many documentaries, but then ended up getting silenced.

    2. “The burden of proof for vaccines, including the COVID vaccine, has obviously been met.”

      These days, at my age, from where I came, I have come to the point where I somehow “programmed” to ignore something that is simply blatantly stupid. Show me one proof that COVID vaccine can indeed contribute to less dying and less infection.

      Do not make things up by saying less symptom somehow means less dying, means less infection, means higher immortality, means Godhood, etc etc nonsense. If the vaccine leaflet states less symptoms, then so be it with less symptoms. Do not make things up as you go along your bullshit journey.

    1. A smart/wise/intelligent person would rather ask Andrew to explain himself on that, but I am certain a person of your kind would much rather be one-sided.

      1. Again, ad hominem.

        The objective facts are there. His sample size was 12. 10 of 12 contributors to the research, funded by attorneys with a stake in legal cases involving vaccines, withdrew their support. Fraud was uncovered. Again, preponderance of evidence.

        Anyone else on here that wants to research Andrew Wakefield, do your own research and decide for yourself.

        1. Okay, if you think Andrew Wakefield made a fraud, pathetically with no financial/monetary gain whatsoever, then so be it to you.

          If you think Andrew Wakefield is a bad guy, then so be it to you.

          If you believe vaccine works, then so be it to you.

          If you think I have lost this argument, then so be it to you.

          Whether you prosper or fail in your life, is none of my business after all.
          Why the fuck should I even care about your opinion?

      2. “A smart/wise/intelligent person would rather ask Andrew to explain himself on that”

        Oh I see. So ask Wakefield to judge himself? And that is not biased?

        Lol. You keep labelling all studies that show that vaccines work as ‘biased’.

        But only your hero Wakefield can judge his own work. No doubt, in his unbiased opinion, he will judge his own work to be excellent.

        1. Why are you an idiot?
          If someone accuse Andrew Wakefield of fraud, isn’t it right to allow him to defend himself first before laying the final judgment?

          You don’t even give him the chance to speak up or clarify things. You are so quick to say yes he is a fraud.

          Damn, if someone were to accuse you of rape and murder, and everyone else say yes to that without giving you any chance to speak up, how the fuck would you feel?

          It’s not about him judging himself. It’s about him speaking up or clarifying himself.
          Why is this so damn hard to be understood by you?

            1. He is being silenced and shut down by the media.
              Anyone that associates with him is being pressured to dissociate.
              Robert DeNiro was pressured to reject airing his documentary Vaxxed.

                1. He is being muted by the media. Got it?
                  He needs to find unconventional venue beyond the control of the powers that be to speak up. Got it?

    1. Likewise, I care about facts and facts only.

      Which is why I am not pro-vax today.

      For your information, my journey started with the statement, “Wow, if I get myself all the vaccines out there, I probably would be like a superman of sort.”

      Man, you have no idea whatsoever of my background.

      You may just think all anti-vax people started off negative.

      You have no idea, this I can say for damn sure.

    2. you have found the issue of the inability to discuss/debate scientific knowledge with a group that does not understand debates, logical arguments, presentation of facts etc.

      This the reason I empathetically commented that Maverick had poor science education. It is not the facts that we learn in school that matter, those will change as we learn more about the world. It is the way of thinking that matters, and Maverick never learned to think like a scientist. He never learned to evaluate evidence for himself and he never learned to be able to present his view.

      Don’t waste your time Fire Junky.

      On one thig I do agree with Maverick though, and it is on the freedom to chose and the freedom to express your views. This gets into a much bigger societal discussion, but I can’t be bothered…

      1. Totally agree on freedom of speech. And the freedom to choose one’s own medical treatments. Hopefully truth will prevail and deniers will be persuaded.

        1. I am truly curious.

          Have you watched the documentaries “Vaxxed” and “Trace Amount”?

          Have you watched the docu-series “Vaccines Revealed (2017)” and “The Truth About Vaccines (2020)”?

          You talk about facts, but whose fact?

          The real denier is you.

          Like I suggested, make an open public debate between Andrew Wakefield and friends vs the pro-vaxxers, with international coverage.

          If you think this is not objective enough from me, then no surprise to me that human behavior can be extremely biased.

          I really hope you will regularly take a lot of vaccines. You would be a superman of sort, someday.

      2. It is not that I am incapable of discussion. Rather it is because your questions are way too typical and simplistic for me to seriously bother answering.

        But since you are so eager to make accusation and defamation about me, as if you are smart and I am stupid, then here is one simple and short answer to one of your simplistic question.

        Researches by university faculties can be funded with grants sponsored by profit-seeking companies. And this is actually very very common practice. And because they are sponsored, results tend to sway to the interests of the sponsor. And this is basic common street-smart sense.

        If you have been living in this world for some time, you should not have asked simplistic questions. You should have seen all the corruptions going on and get wiser.

  23. Ultimately, what I instead learned is the more vaccine you get, the more fucked up will be your immune system. Yes, if you truly believe vaccine can help save you, then please go ahead. Somewhere in your future, you may realize your mistake.

    If the powers that be wants a global depopulation and somehow they are also enforcing everyone to take vaccine that will prolong life, and eventually contribute to more population growth, then good luck to them.

    Vaccine will make you more susceptible to future variants of the same disease/virus. Don’t believe? Too quackery to be the truth? Suit yourself.

  24. Robert DeNiro Debates Autism’s Link To Vaccines | TODAY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ7iPn39i08

    Watch this video as one tiny fragment of a vast space of hard truth about vaccines.

    There are a ton of people in the US that share similar experience. The anti-vax people want to speak out. It’s the pro-vax people that shuts down free speech with character assassination and threats.

    Go watch the video. But I am sure pro-vax people may very likely say Robert DeNiro is a quack. Vaxxed. Trace Amount. And many other documentary series. Only the truth seeker will know. If you can’t find these videos and documentaries, then it’s because the powers that be doesn’t want you plebs to know.

    Robert DeNiro and family suffered the consequence of vaccination. But he is not anti-vax. Even Andrew Wakefield admitted he is not anti-vax. He is just asking for safe vaccine. But from scientific standpoint, there is simply no proof of safe vaccine, except saline.

    The only vaccine that I believe works is the vaccine that is individual-specific and tailored to specific genetic disposition. Definitely not the ones made for mass inoculation with questionable content.

    One reason why I choose not to debate in vaccine is because the more I learn, the more I realize pro-vaccine people can be so dumb.

    In the past, in one of my debate, pro-vax people would argue trimerosal is safe because we eat salmon with far more mercury than the tiny amount in trimerosal. Later I learned the pro-vax people failed to differentiate ingestion vs injection. With ingestion, even a spoonful of mercury is safe because it will be excreted out by tomorrow morning. With injection, whatever the amount will circulate within your system for the rest of your life and accumulate in fatty tissues, including the brains. And the more I know, the more I realize how intellectually bankrupt really are the pro-vax people.

  25. Hello

    Don’t forget, Vax for only rich country is not the solution.
    The World have to vaccine a very large part of the humans to stop the pandémie
    The ultim solution is a medic treatment, but it’s not yet on the radar soon.

  26. I truly wish the pro-vaxxers really practice what they preach, that they will take as many vaccines and as frequently as possible.

    MMR vaccines, polio vaccines, covid vaccine, booster vaccine, please take them all.

      1. That is very good to know, to be honest. Yes, please take more of them in the future. Just don’t lie about it. Just don’t be someone that takes a few of them and then tell lies that you took them all. Just don’t be a liar to win a petty argument.

        1. Lol. Why would I lie? I was given polio at birth, I took MMR as a requirement for my US visa in 2010 and of course, I have taken covid vaccine.

          I have taken Hepatitis and Tetanus shots too.

          I also regularly take Dukoral before traveling. I love vaccines. Prevention is better than cure.

          1. That is good, but not enough. Babies today are being subjected to more than 30 vaccines. How many vaccines have you subjected yourself with?

            Still, keep up the good work.

              1. Refer to the US vaccine schedule as well as take up suggestions by Dr. Paul Offit.

                You will find the answer.

                    1. I thanked you for a list of vaccines.

                      And you have no real arguments.

                      2 different things – try to keep up.

  27. Fact:

    Bill Gates @ TED Talk (2010): “The world today has 6.8 billion people. That’s headed up to about nine billion. Now, if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by, perhaps, 10 or 15 percent. But there, we see an increase of about 1.3.”

    If this is not fact to you, sure, whatever rocks your boat.

    If this is taken out of context, despite his statement being so straightforward, sure, whatever rocks your boat.

    Let those who have eyes to see, see.

    Ultimately, you the pro-vaxxers, are the real deniers.

    I truly and sincerely and honestly wish that you the pro-vaxxers will take all the vaccines available out there, regularly and frequently.

    There is a limit to my empathy. But I have zero empathy to those who are literally brain-dead. There is a difference between stupid vs brain-dead. Stupidity can be cured with knowledge. Brain-dead has no remedy whatsoever.

    1. Do you ever wonder if you’re just crazy? Or, to put it more politely, mentally unstable? Your comments are on a level of creepiness that is pretty disturbing. Not just for this blog post but for multiple prior blog posts as well. And I don’t need to provide links to prove my point. Your comments on here are sufficient proof and fact. You are cray cray! Seek non echo chamber professional help (youtube or other social media is not considered professional help).

      1. Crazy for quoting Bill Gates on depopulation through vaccination, hoping that some may wake the fuck up? Okay, so be it to you.

  28. “Wouldn’t that be nice? Now if we could just convince these people to take their damned shots…”

    Whether the people choose not to vaccinate is not of your damn business.
    If the government impose dictatorial ruling that enforce restrictions because some people choose not to vaccinate, you should condemn the government instead.

    Everyone has the right and freedom to choose to vaccinate or not vaccinate.

    Nobody has the right to convince (nor condemn) anyone else to take (or not take) the damned shots.

    Damn selfish hypocrites.

    1. I wasnt in favor of govt mandating vaccines. But after interacting with anti vaxxers, I have changed my opinion.

      I am all for vaccine passports and mandated vaccines.

      1. Here lies your false logic and reasoning.

        In this case, your logic has become that of tyranny. In this case, you can be subjected to whatever the shit that you subject onto others. In this case, I have the right to persuade everyone to not take vaccine regardless of your dislike.

          1. When they are in power? Please explain what kind of power? The power to be shut down by tyrannical people? The power to be silenced by the media? Why are you an idiot?

            Yes, you may argue for the sake of winning an argument. But at least do so with good reason and logic. Not some double standards and hypocrisy.

            1. Yes, fox news regularly silences people who dont agree with them.

              Republicans/right wingers regularly trample on rights of minorities, women and empower police brutality (the very definition of tyranny btw).

              But right wing snowflakes like have a problem whenever someone disagrees with them and claim that disagreement to be tyranny.

              1. “But right wing snowflakes like have a problem whenever someone disagrees with them and claim that disagreement to be tyranny.”

                That sounds very much like you.

                If you have no problem with my viewpoint, you would not be wasting your time now. Look into the mirror and you will see yourself.

                  1. If you have problem with my viewpoint, then it’s your own problem. Personally I see nothing wrong with my viewpoint.

                  2. If you have no problem with your own viewpoint AND I have no problem with mine, then why do you care to express your problem?

                    You just said you have problem with my viewpoint. Who cares?

                    Very obviously you have been arguing for the sake of winning an argument, regardless of whatever the logic or the absence of it. Yes, you have just revealed to me the size of your dick.

                    1. Lol! If you dont care, why comment on this article? YOU started it.

                      Also, you seem obsessed with penises. What happened? You lost yours? It doesnt work? Try viagra…but be careful, its big pharma stuff lol

                  3. I am not asking if I care. I am asking why do you care. Can’t you read?

                    I am not obsessed with penises. I am just aware that you are extremely egoistic and very eager to pick fights and arguments, as they say, trying to show whose dick is bigger. Not a single one of your comment is reasonable. If the same standards you apply on others were to be applied onto you equally, I am sure you would be offended too. You are morally and intellectually bankrupt.

                    If only you were a wise, reasonable, and intelligent person…

                    1. I count at least 6 times where you have mentioned penises to others in your comments. So yeah, I would say you are obsessed.

                      At this point, you are entertainment. A moron to be laughed at. You are great advertisement for vaccines, because you are a great example of how dumb anti vaxxers are.

                  4. I don’t even count. But you care to count. I believe it is you that is obsessed with penises. You can say I am a moron and laugh all you like.

                    I remember a Buddhist parable where the Buddha asked another person what he sees in the Buddha. The person said he see a pile of garbage. The Buddha replied, it is because you yourself are a pile of garbage that you would see in others the same.

                    I am not a moron nor an entertainment. Maybe you are.

                    1. I merely count (a simple CMD+F)…but you care to keep writing about it. Clearly, you are more obsessed.

                      Anti vaxxers are all morons and every normal person laughs at them. They deserve the mockery, and if as a result, they feel silenced, so be it.

                  5. Then I suppose you are a fan of multiple dicks. Good for you. If you so desire to kept entertained, I may write more of them.

      2. The problem with policies like this are that they are a slippery slope. A person’s domain over their own body is primary.

        You personally have the ability to protect yourself and your family by vaccinating. If others eschew the protection that is their right. Just like people are free to drink alcohol, smoke, and drive fast motorcycles in spite of the risk to themselves and even others.

        Would you agree with the government completely outlawing abortion? This dominion over one’s own body is in the same vein.

        1. Except, abortion is not contagious.

          The govt mandates that you cannot put alcohol in your body when driving or flying. Is that a slippery slope? Do you want drunk drivers and pilots to be allowed to drive and fly?

          There are plenty of vaccine mandates for kids going to public schools. I myself had to take MMR vaccines without which, I couldnot join a US university to study. This was in 2010, and no slippage into tyranny has since taken place.

          I am not saying that govt agents should kidnap people and inject them.

          But I am ok with denying access to non essential services based on vaccine status (with exceptions for people with real allergies to vaccines with some proof of that).

          1. If vaccines really do work, then why are you still worried about contagious issue?

            Who in the world that is unvaccinated would still be able to spread and affect you that has been vaccinated with various different vaccines?

            Where is your logic?

            1. Unvaxxed people breed variants that can overcome existing vaccine protection.

              Also, out of humanitarian reasons, unvaxxed people are still treated for Covid in hospitals, taking away a hospital bed from people who need them for non idiotic reasons.

              1. Have you heard of permanent immunity? Those who built up natural immunity gets it permanently regardless of variants.

                It is people like you that subscribe to temporary immunity that are desperate for booster vaccine as well as newer vaccines against different variants.

                The people that built up natural and permanent immunity have no such vulnerability.

                I never take those vaccines that you took. But I don’t think my immune system is worse than yours. You can’t even see your own problem.

                1. I know people who have been infected naturally twice. Once with original Wuhan strain and then with Delta. Delta put them in hospital.

                  So you are speaking lies.

                  1. I give you the benefit of doubt and assume these people never take any vaccine pre and post Wuhan strain.
                    But have you asked why these people did not die the first time they got the original Wuhan strain?
                    And are you saying your COVID vaccine will save you from Delta?

                    1. The original Wuhan strain was less lethal to people below 60 and those without comorbidities. But delta is more lethal. Simple.

                      And those who were able to get vaccines before the delta wave struck, didnt get infected or go to hospital if they were.

                      Vaccine will save me from hospitalization from Delta according to current data.

                      It may not save me from some future variant that arises from the unvaxxed.

  29. OK… here’s a solution we can all agree on:
    Without bringing politics into the discussion, the situation is basically that the professional class, governmental, retirees, FIRE people (me in this group), etc are all upset because vast swaths of the working class have yet to be vaccinated, thus stalling out any forward progress the country can make in returning to “normal”.

    Consider that the professional class have it better now than ever (working from home now standard, plus a labor shortage causing wages to skyrocket). Conversely, the working class are still in their working class jobs, that is if they’re even working at all. Also consider that technically the vaccines, as of this writing, are not actually formally approved.

    My proposal is that the government pays those working class people who’ve yet to be vaccinated a one time payment of $50,000 upon getting vaccinated. Note that this amount is the same figure that many politicians are suggesting for blanket student loan forgiveness. Getting everyone vaccinated will have an infinitely more positive economic benefit than forgiving student loans, plus it’s the right thing to do.

    1. I dont agree with this at all. First of all, it rewards idiots for their idiocy.

      Second, what if there is a new variant that requires another round of vaccination? People will learn that there are financial rewards to be had if they hold off on taking vaccines.

      1. But aren’t you an idiot yourself? Just saying.

        You would benefit from such policy yourself, no?

        Those that truly do not believe in vaccines would remain so regardless of the monetary reward.

          1. I replied to all your stupid nonsense without fail. How can I be running out of arguments. You have been making extremely stupid statements bordering on tyranny and hypocrisy.

              1. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

                Calling for mandated vaccination. Violating other people’s personal liberty for selfish gain. Seeing nothing wrong with that. Name calling should be fine with you.

                1. I am fine with name calling. But the fact that you have nothing except name calling proves that you have no real arguments and that I am right 🙂

                    1. I am the one with the majority on my side, at least in Canada. Most support vaccine passport here 🙂 So do many countries. Have fun not traveling.

              2. ht, that’s what he did with me. Ad hominem attacks. Very little if any refutation of the case I presented.

                Hell, we don’t have to all agree, but at least be able to defend your arguments.

                1. I don’t want to defend my argument because I was hoping you would do your own research to find the answer you look for. I did suggested you to watch the documentaries and docu-series, right? You have yet to answer if you have watched them. The ones that best defend my argument are the documentaries and docu-series. Do you know I have watched them all? Do you realize that is why I suggested them?

    2. First, the government imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated to get them vaccinated is a form of tyranny.

      Second, whether the unvaccinated choose to remain unvaccinated is none of other people damn business.

      Third, if vaccines really do work, then those that have been vaccinated by right should have zero worries. Unless their vaccines do not work.

    3. Suffice it to say I vehemently disagree with your proposal, which lacks vital details such as how to pay for it along with another laundry list of government entitlements being proposed.

      Meanwhile there are close to 10M available jobs in the market, school is about to reopen, and vaccines are widely available and free. Taken together, these address the primary reasons for unemployment. Let’s not talk about labor participation at 62%, that’s another story.

      1. Actually, I do have a way to easily pay the $50K per unvaccinated to become vaccinated. My plan is to take the funding allocated to $50K/student debt forgiveness and instead apply that to funding the $50K/unvaccinated. There’s a massive societal benefit to getting everyone vaccinated, yet no benefit at all for student debt forgiveness, so there should be no problem justifying it.

        1. I don’t think that money someone borrowed as an adult should just be erased for no reason. Nor do I think that we should pay an adult citizen $50,000 to get a free vaccine. I actually think both of these are preposterous in a free society.

          This is just my opinion. We can agree to disagree.

          1. I would also include children in my plan. I’ve got a friend who has (8) kids. The parents have already been vaccinated, but for the sake of argument let’s assume they weren’t already vaccinated. That would be a one-time $500,000 total payment to the family by the government. I think $500K is perfectly justified to return a family’s ability to fully participate in and contribute to society. I would also include newly arriving immigrants on the southern border.

  30. Disagreement with this. And disagreement with that.
    Lots and lots of disagreements.

    To those who are pro-vax, you should just practice what you preach, by taking the desired vaccine, and thereafter mind your own business.

    If you have been vaccinated, then stop worrying about contagious stuff. Unless your vaccine does not work. In which case, it is your own faith and practice of vaccination that is questionable.

    You are in favor of vaccination, but at the same time you are afraid of the unvaccinated. Are you implying your vaccine does not work?

    Anyone suggesting mandated vaccination is 100% pure stupidity. Unless deep inside you know your vaccine does not work, thus contagion is still possible, thus everyone must be vaccinated for herd immunity, and thus mandated vaccination.

    Please give me a break. If your vaccine alone can’t protect you, then it is all the same with everyone else.

    Please use your brains and think.

    1. Unvaxxed people can breed new variants that can beat vaccines.

      They also fall sick and take up valuable hospital beds. Unvaxxed people should not be treated for any disease that they have refused vaccination for.

      1. “And those who were able to get vaccines before the delta wave struck, didnt get infected or go to hospital if they were.”

        Assuming what you said is true, then that is good news.

        “Vaccine will save me from hospitalization from Delta according to current data.”

        In that case, why still worry about contagion? Just get the newer vaccines.

        “It may not save me from some future variant that arises from the unvaxxed.”

        Do you not realize that it is impossible to do 100% immunization? Do you not realize if your fear of the fantasy is true, then it is just a matter of time that the remaining 1% percentage of the unvaccinated may breed a killer strain and everyone of the 99% vaccinated would still need to get another newer vaccine? Do you not realize this is endless? You would need 100% of the people to get vaccinated and 100% of them to continue getting vaccinated until the virus dies out.

        Either this virus is truly deadly, or you have been fed pills of fear and worry.

        1. “Just get the newer vaccines.”

          Probability of variants increases with unvaxxed %ge. And newer vaccines might not be fast enough.

          You also didnt address my point about unvaxxed taking up hospital beds.

          1. I am not 100% sure if the unvaxxed taking up hospital beds is strictly due to covid and nothing else, so I cannot comment on that. Likewise, I am also not 100% sure if the vaxxed will strictly never going to take up hospital beds at all due to covid, so I cannot comment on that either.

          2. One thing just crossed my mind. In the vaccine leaflet, it is stated the vaccine will reduce symptoms. Nothing else. It does not state you will be a superman invincible of covid. And it is clearly explained that reduced symptom will reduce economic costs, including the one you mentioned, i.e. no need for hospital beds.

            I would interpret that further. I would interpret that to also mean you may still get covid but because of reduced symptom, you will never know you get it, thus no taking up hospital beds.

            Here is my further analysis: If you get covid after getting the vaccine, and the covid does not kill you (never mind you feel no symptom and take up no hospital beds), then its probably the virus is not as deadly as you are led to believe. Unless you are 100% cocksure that you will never ever get the same strain of covid as the vaccine shot you take up against.

      1. It is not about blind bravery. It is about developing permanent immunity naturally. It is about building up the immune defense through the skin, ear, nose, and throat first and foremost before anything else.

        You guys are taking temporary immunity by injecting the virus directly into the blood stream, unnaturally. And you guys will be the ones that keep depending on vaccines for further immunity.

        Scientists found out the Wuhan strain is such that there is extremely minimal chance of it being the result of natural evolution, but much rather lab-made. And these scientists are being silenced from suggesting this virus being lab-made in Wuhan.

        Bill Gates once mentioned using vaccines for depopulation. Global depopulation is an agenda of the powers that be.

        If it is 100% true that covid is lab-made and there is a global depopulation agenda,then by right it s very befitting that the government will use vaccine for their goal. And you need to realize there is some power that wants you dead in one way or another. In some community, those that took certain vaccine (not for covid but for some other disease) were sterilized, i.e. can no longer give birth.

        At the start, Andrew Wakefield never said MMR vaccine contribute to autism. He merely said not enough study were done. He is not against vaccine. He is all for safe vaccine. Now after observing the backlash from certain medical professionals, he is sure there is a link. Yet the people that sue him for fraud claim he is associating MMR vaccine to autism. That is literally a slander.

        Instead of blaming the unvaxxed, you should blame the powers that be that is hell bent on depopulation.

        And it is you people the sheep that keep falling into their traps. But I don’t think you will ever understand. There is more to this than meets your eyes.

        1. I think the world is overpopulated.

          If the powers that be wanted to kill people, it wouldnt be the obedient sheeple lining up to get vaccines. What good is that for them?

          They would rather kill off the disobedient ones. Thats why I see no motive in killing people via vaccines.

          1. Based on their relentless propaganda on vaccination, I don’t think they even care who’s going to die, or die slowly.

            But depopulation through better healthcare (read vaccination) is clearly stated in their agenda, regardless of your personal denial.

      2. Let’s keep it much simpler.

        It’s not about not trusting the vaccine.
        It’s about not trusting the one giving the vaccine.

        Which is also why I suggested to make an open public debate with international coverage without any restrain on any side, between Andrew Wakefield and others vs the pro-vax experts.

        You see, I have zero fear for such debate. It is not going to shake my faith as anti-vaxxer. But if indeed Andrew and the others flopped, then I will change my stance. But for them to flop is very extremely unlikely.

        But don’t say they flopped because you or anyone else say so. They must flop in such open public debate with international coverage without any restrain.

      3. If you truly think depopulation agenda is a quackery, then you need to know David Rockefeller once confessed to national conspiracy, although not specifically covid. And it is far more than meets your eyes, beyond mere David Rockefeller.

        You may think all those people that believe in such conspiracy is stupid and poor, but you may not realize there are those that have such knowledge and got massively enriched by it, financially. So instead of stupid and poor, these quack people may actually be smart and rich, but then you don’t know it.

          1. In the past I do kind of agree. But after further thinking, overpopulation happens only in concentrated area, i.e. large cities.

            The problem with human population is the wastage generated, i.e. rubbishes that never get recycled and have to go to the landfill and the sea.

            While human population will always come and go, the rubbishes that humans cause never go away, but instead pile up more and more with each passing generation.

            I kind of believe the recycling industry is fake as fuck. Otherwise why the hell are countries exporting large quantities of rubbishes to third world countries? Those rubbishes are plastics that can actually be recycled by the exporting countries. I don’t think most people know of such act (exporting rubbishes).

            So less human population —> less pollution + less wastages.

            1. City population is better.

              Higher density with electrified transit is better for the environment than suburban or rural low density sprawl.

              We need more city population and less rural/suburban.

              City income taxes subsidized rural areas anyway. Imagine building a road, power line, etc for each house, thats what happens in rural areas.

              Rural rednecks have leached of cities for too long.

                    1. 1. Even if I was American, I wouldnt go along to get along with fascists and anti vaxxers.

                      2. Who is Ghandi? And in any case, I am not going to surrender first lol. I would rather these culture wars continue forever. The left has had enough of surrendering for the sake of the moral high ground.

                  1. 1. I was referring to your comment about urban planning and “rural rednecks”, not Fascists or anti-vaxxers. My only point is that I think global citizens would benefit from leadership on important issues like this, and that taking the moral high ground by avoiding ridicule or name calling might be useful. However it is, after all, you’re right to say what you want, so feel free to ignore.

                    2. I was referring to political ethicist Mahatma Gandhi. I put the “h” in the wrong place.

  31. I do not deny the fact that Elon Musk may probably be a huge internet troll, but listen to what he said about covid tests. This guy is very likely much smarter and definitely much filthy richer than us all here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FF6kvx8WO0

    If the unvaccinated people are taking up hospitals beds, then just how sure are you that that is not the result of bad tests?

    As he said, something extremely bogus is going on.

  32. As many as 30% of the unvaccinated say they will be more likely to get one once the FDA approves them. (COVID vaccines are currently approved for emergency use only).

    Maybe people calling for mandates before the medication is approved are jumping the boogie.

    Like free markets, it’s surprising how free people can come around to make good free choices in the fullness of time.
    #NotAll

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-under-pressure-to-grant-full-approval-to-covid-19-vaccines-11627810202?st=4yjxlz971gnxx5e&reflink=article_copyURL_share

  33. Once again you can’t see outside your own bubble. I vote Republican because I love freedom not because I think Covid is a hoax. Quite the opposite. What if I have already had Covid do I need the shot? I am not in the high danger categories, so I don’t feel it poses anymore threat to me than the flu which I do not get a shot every year for either. If I was older or felt immune compromised it would be a different story. I know being from Canada it is hard for you to understand but freedom is freedom and I enjoy everything being my choice.

  34. I hope that we don’t end up with a new recession. I feel like it really depends on what will happen on a political level. If there aren’t shutdowns, I don’t think we’ll see a recession.

  35. 100% with your analysis. We are in the final stage of this war against the virus.
    Once this last wave will be done and that everybody in the world will have access to the vaccine, the pandemic will end very fast.

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